iso14000-digest Sunday, December 21 1997 Volume 02 : Number 019
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:49:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: Non-member submission from [Potter at Island Resources Foundation ] (fwd)
NOTE: Respond *both* to the poster's address (see BELOW line reading
"Forwarded Message") and to the list's posting address, OR as directed in
the posting, but definitely NOT to me.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Bill
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
=============================================================================
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:33:36 -0500 (EST)
To: iso14000@quality.org
From: Potter at Island Resources Foundation
Subject: Re: Forestry and IS0 14001
Thanks to Matthias Gelber for the information:
>In Indonesia there are 3 forestry-related companies certified to ISO
>14001 so far:
>
>PT Wirakarya Sakti, Industrial Forest Plantation
>PT Sumalindo Lestari Jaya, Plywood
>PT Tungal Agathis Indah Wood Industries, Plywood
Now I have no way of knowing, but let's just suppose that the forest
concessions of all three firms were burned to the ground this past season
by field personnel seeking to clear brush from cutting zones. That would
NOT compromise their 14001 certification, would it?
And if NEXT year each suffered major fires, but smaller than this year
(after all, what's left to burn?), that would NOT compromise their
certification, would it??
And if all the soil on all the hillsides in all their forest concessions in
Kalimantan end up in the Sea next monsoon season, that will NOT compromise
their ISO 14001 certification, would it? [In fact, I might bet that
downsteam sediment levels after harvesting is not even part of their
Environmental Management System or monitoring processes.]
And therefore, when these three firms go to Brasil, they can represent that
they have the highest environmental credentials, citing with pride their
ISO 14001 certification, perhaps pointing out that Weyerhauser, for
example, is not certified similarly.
It really is comforting to have these international standards, uniformly
applied.
bruce potter for himself
- --------------------------------
>Dear Michael
>
>In Indonesia there are 3 forestry-related companies certified to ISO
>14001 so far:
>
>PT Wirakarya Sakti, Industrial Forest Plantation
>PT Sumalindo Lestari Jaya, Plywood
>PT Tungal Agathis Indah Wood Industries, Plywood
>
>Let's appreciate that they have been so proactive to initiate a process
>of continual improvement, especially in a context where there is not
>such a comprehensive command and control pressure.
>
>An ISO 14001 certificate is never a garantee for an absolute level of
>environmental performance, because ISO 14001 does not specify one (this
>is outside of the scope of TC 207 and would have most likely excluded
>most sites in developing countries to participate), however it contains
>the
>comittment to compliance to national environmental legislation as part
>of the policy requirements, which makes it some kind of "national
>environmental performance" entry level.
>
>AS Anthony Lambert indicated, the ISO 14001 definition for aspects
>identification:
>"The organization shall establish and maintain (a) procedure(s) to
>identify the environmental aspects of its activities, products or
>services that it can control and over which it can be expected to have
>an influence, in order to determine those which have or can have
>significant impacts on the environment."
>
> This does not prescriptively tell you exactly what you have to do, but
>if you take this requirement serious, then the scope of what you look at
>will be very comprehensive and include your inputs, because of your
>influence deriving from your purchasing power. This definition in the
>standard is actully very powerful in practise, because companies have to
>think about what are their influences are, instead of just following the
>aspects in a given checklist or a command list from the Regulator.
>
>However we might think about ISO 14001, one thing is sure. Never before
>has there been such a big opportunity in developing countries for the
>environment to become a part of the decision making process of industry,
>due to the market driven interest shown in ISO 14001. Now the challenge
>is to work on value adding systems which lead to environmental
>performance improvement and internal efficiency gains instead of it just
>becoming a certificate hunting.
>
>For that we need capacity building programms. And my experience tells me
>that this could start with consultants in developing countries, which
>have a massive impact on how companies implement the system (This has
>been demonstrated in Germany by empirical data from EMAS research).
>
>Greetings from Jakarta
>
>Matthias Gelber
>mgelber@ibm.net
>
>Michael G. Jacobson wrote:
>>
>> ISO 14001 seems geared toward "assessing" facilities, i.e., factories, as
>> single, seperate units. Are inputs included in the assessment? For example,
>> can a paper company that purchases wood on the open market, have just its
>> pulping and paper-making process audited, and not the source of the wood,
>> i.e., how the forest is managed?
>>
>> I'd also appreciate knowing whether there are any forestry-related
>> companies, i.e., producers of wood or forest products that have undertaken
>> or plan to do an EMS under ISO 14001.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Jacobson
>> Assistant Professor/Extension Specialist
>> School of Forest Resources and Conservation
>> University of Florida
>> Box 110410
>> Gainesville, FL 32611
>>
>> Tel: 352-846-0883
>> Fax: 352-846-1277
>--< 25 Years of Environmental Service to Small Tropical Islands >--<
Island Resources Foundation |+|Island Resources Foundation
6296 Estate Nazareth, No. 11 |+|1718 "P" Street NW, Suite T-4
St. Thomas, VI 00802-1104 |+|Washington, DC 20036
phone 340/775-6225,fax 779-2022 |+|phone 202/265-9712,fax 232-0748
Internet: etowle@irf.org |+|irf@irf.org
>---< Check the Island Resources Web Site at http://www.irf.org/ >---<
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:52:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: Qualitybook on intranet (fwd)
NOTE: If any of you can help this inquirer, please do so directly. There
is no need to cc: me on your response.
Thanks.
Bill
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:18:02 -0800
From: "Jornil, Ib"
Subject: Qualitybook on intranet
Do you have some ideas where I can come in connection to a person or firm
who have implementet a Quality - and Enviromentalhandbook on the intranet. I
need some good ideas to make such a book / manual very easy to seach in and
the userinterface should look nice. The meaning is to do it attractiv for
the custumer seach in the manual and of course they should have a benefit
out of using the book.
I am working in a Quality function in a Danish firm in Denmark.
Kindly regards
Ib Jornil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:48:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: Non-member submission from ["eric.mugnier" ] (fwd)
NOTE: Respond *both* to the poster's address (see BELOW line reading
"Forwarded Message") and to the list's posting address, OR as directed in
the posting, but definitely NOT to me.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Bill
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
=============================================================================
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:10:10 -0500 (EST)
To: iso14000
From: "eric.mugnier"
Subject: Re: design for environmental
Teddy,
I know no web site on that topic but there is a lot of litterature about it.
In your search you should differenciate household packaging (packaging that
ends il households hands) from industrial packaging.
Try Institute of Packaging Professionals (IoPP) in Reston, VA, USA.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 11:04:40 +0000
From: Anthony J Lambert
Subject: Re: Non-member submission from [Potter at Island Resources Foundation ] (fwd)
Dear Bruce Potter
You said:
>Now I have no way of knowing, but let's just suppose that the forest
>concessions of all three firms [registered to ISO 14001] were burned
>to the ground this past season
>by field personnel seeking to clear brush from cutting zones. That would
>NOT compromise their 14001 certification, would it?
>
>And if NEXT year each suffered major fires, but smaller than this year
>(after all, what's left to burn?), that would NOT compromise their
>certification, would it??
>
>And if all the soil on all the hillsides in all their forest concessions in
>Kalimantan end up in the Sea next monsoon season, that will NOT compromise
>their ISO 14001 certification, would it? [In fact, I might bet that
>downsteam sediment levels after harvesting is not even part of their
>Environmental Management System or monitoring processes.]
>
>And therefore, when these three firms go to Brasil, they can represent that
>they have the highest environmental credentials, citing with pride their
>ISO 14001 certification, perhaps pointing out that Weyerhauser, for
>example, is not certified similarly.
Yes, and let's then suppose that we all did nothing but winge about how
horrible those rapers and pillagers of the environment were in big bad
Indonesia. That would be great, wouldn't it? Green nirvana in the fast
lane!
Anyway, wilful cynicism aside, the scenario you paint is indeed correct;
technically, it could happen. But the central plank of your web of
assumptions - that these three firms have not considered the
environmental issues associated with their timber supplies - is fatally
flawed. As I mentioned in a previous offering to this discussion, a
plymill in Asia which I helped to achieve ISO 14001 certification
actually identified the environmental issues associated with its timber
supplies, but which clearly are not within its direct sphere of control,
as the most significant environmental impact. As a result, they have set
a target to switch their supply from virgin forest to a sustainably
managed plantation, within five years. Okay, they still use wood, and
yes, you would probably be justified in making yet another assumption
that the sustainably managed timber plantation was once virgin forest
anyway, and yes again, you may ask "well, how do we know the plantation
is sustainably managed?" but hey, given the simple choice, I know which
source of supply I would prefer them to use.
As to the wider merits of ISO 14001, let's put it into some kind of
context. ISO 14001 is a start. It is just a tool. And it is without
doubt *not* a holy grail in itself. It does not consider socio-economic
issues - how could it? - which are the fundamental driving force behind
some of the environmental outrages, one of which you described, that we
witness year in and year out. To use another example, the fact that an
oil company in the USA can achieve ISO 14001 certification whilst the US
Government tries to place obstacles in the way of genuine progress on
global warming avoidance does not invalidate ISO 14001 as a genuine
attempt to instil some environmental considerations in business
decision-making. People will burn forests, and Governments will
obfuscate, regardless of the existence of ISO 14001. Yet one company may
reduce its overall environmental impact through its appliance of ISO
14001. Is that not inherently a good thing?
Finally, your statement that "it really is comforting to have these
international standards, uniformly applied" indicates, possibly, that you
need a holiday more than it brings your argument to any valid conclusion.
With regards
Tony Lambert
THE RUBICON
UK
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:35:55 -0500
From: Rona Fried
Subject: Re: Qualitybook on intranet (fwd)
>Do you have some ideas where I can come in connection to a person or firm
>who have implementet a Quality - and Enviromentalhandbook on the intranet. I
Check out http://www.nortel.com
The site includes Nortels' eco-management system, downloadable
"Envirobase" tool for tracking company performance, and PERI guidelines.
Rona Fried, Ph.D.
Executive Editor, Sustainable Business Network Journal
http://www.envirolink.org/sbn
516-423-3277
- -- The Sustainable Business Network is a focal point for the sustainable
business community on the Internet. It consists of The SBN Journal, Library,
Sustainable Business Opportunities and, Green Dream Jobs --
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 97 20:45:36 -0000
From: richard@frey.demon.co.uk
Subject: Forestry and ISO 14001
Dear Bruce,
The possession of a certificated EMS is no guarantee of absolute
performance. An EMS is a management system, in the same way a thermostat
is a temperature management device. Whether the thermostat is set to a
reasonable level is another matter.
Best wishes,
Richard Frey
Frey Environmental Associates Limited
Specialists in the design and implementation of environmental management
systems.
http://www.frey.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:24:53 +0100
From: "Goodman, Sally"
Subject: [none]
John Clifford Jr wrote:
Many SMEs are coached through ISO 9001/2 implementation in small groups
of
4 or 5, often under the auspices of a regional MEP. Cost-effectiveness
outweighs the disadvantage of a "generic" presentation -- and the SMEs
can
interact and share "best practices" during implementation, a big plus in
many cases.
Has this approach been used yet for ISO 14001 ?
I am aware of two examples in the UK. A group called "Payback" Business
Environmental Association has helped a number of SMEs to implement ISO
14001, contact Dr David Roe, tel. +44 1752 254444, fax. +44 1752 255055.
Another group which has done a similar thing is Durham Accreditation &
Training Centre, contact Rob Wilson, tel: +44 191 384 8944, fax. +44 191
386 2782.
Regards,
Sally L Goodman
Product Manager AESC, DTP 325 (DNV)
( Direct Line +47 67 57 8213
( Switchboard +47 57 67 99 00
Fax +47 57 67 97 05
* sally.goodman@dnv.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:59:18 -0500
From: "Michael G. Jacobson"
Subject: responses to forestry questions
I had quite a few requests to forward what information I received on my
forestry and ISO questions. I hope i don't distort the facts too much.
It seesm that single "facilities"
Michael Jacobson
Assistant Professor/Extension Specialist
School of Forest Resources and Conservation
University of Florida
Box 110410
Gainesville, FL 32611
Tel: 352-846-0883
Fax: 352-846-1277
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:29:17 -0500
From: "Michael G. Jacobson"
Subject: responses to forestry questions
Sorry for previous mail - i hit "send" by mistake.
I had quite a few requests to summarize what information I received on my
forestry and ISO questions. I hope I don't distort the facts too much.
On facilities vs. organizations being audited:
ISO is not a facility std, but a management system. Ok, but based on
responses it seems that single "facilities" are most common for ISO
certification, but "organizations" as a whole are not excluded.
On the question of inputs being audited:
During the audit, the company should address those it may be expected to
have influence over and control. In other words the companies should really
be thinking about where their products are coming from. Since it is a
process based management system, the production process must be assessed.
But, correct me if I'm wrong: only if they do a life cycle anlaysis do they
need to have their suppliers (ie, inputs) audited, otherwise it's just what
kind of market power or influence they can exert on their suppliers, since
they can only certify their own plant.
On forest companies addressing source of wood:
Some forestry companies, notably in New Zealand, Indonesia, and Brazil have
gone through ISO 14001. I don't know however, whether their wood source is
certified. Some responses suggest that they are trying to address this
issue. The Canadian Standards Assoc. is developing stds on a national basis.
A couple of big US companies are about to embark on the ISO 140000 process.
The ISO committee TC207 is coming out with a report called " guidance to
assist a forestry organization with ISO 14001."
I am still confused about perfomance-based certification vs. management
systems. For example, a couple of people mentioned the FSC (Forest
Stewardship Council) stds and certification process, and its link to ISO.
It's interesting that there are two different certification systems for
forests. What's a landowner to do? FSC says it's performance-based, i.e,
they do a field performance of the "organization." I know EMS is the main
focus of ISO 14000 but is not performance a key part of getting certified
under ISO 14001?
Michael Jacobson
Assistant Professor/Extension Specialist
School of Forest Resources and Conservation
University of Florida
Box 110410
Gainesville, FL 32611
Tel: 352-846-0883
Fax: 352-846-1277
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:42:13 +1000
From: Kay Meadows
Subject: EMAS & BS7750
I am looking for some up-to-date information on the status of BS7750 and
EMAS in relation to ISO14001. Specifically:
(1) I have heard that BS7750 is/has become obsolete and been replaced by
ISO14001 - can anyone verify this or provide me with a correct
interpretation.
(2) I understand that a bridging manual is being prepared for
EMAS-ISO14001. Is this the case and what is the status, and what will it
effectively mean.
I want this information for a Masters thesis on ISO14001 take up in Australia.
Can anyone help.
Thanks
Kay Meadows
Kay Meadows
Australia
Email: kmeadows@iaccess.com.au
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:48:08 +0000
From: Duncan Philips
Subject: air quality
I know that this isn't the correct list.. but, can anyone point me in
the direction of a discussion group which focuses on air quality issues?
Also.. in the UK, a lot of air quality information from specific sites
is available on the internet. Do other countries provide this type of
information and, if so, what are the web addresses?
Thanks,
- --
Duncan Philips
e-mail to: Duncan@genesis2.demon.co.uk
http://www.genesis2.demon.co.uk/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:21:27 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: Non-member submission from [Fran Martin ] (fwd)
NOTE: If interested in the information described below, use the contact
information provided therein to access it. Do NOT respond to the list's
address (or to mine).
Thanks.
Bill
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
Fax: +1 703 834 8209
=============================================================================
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:23:28 -0500 (EST)
To: iso14000-digest@quality.org
From: Fran Martin
Subject: US CFR CD-ROM Update (Title 40: Environment)
FYI,
All 50 U.S. Code of Federal Regulations are on an updated CD-ROM featuring
5,000 in-line graphics, PDF (page-for-page) format, and instant
search/retrieval.
The set (two CDs) costs just over $1 per Title, making it worthwhile to get
all 50 Titles even if you just usually use one or two, such as Title 40.
Check out http://www.env-sol.com
Happy Holidays.
Fran Martin
FM Research & Consulting
Richmond, Virginia
fmartin@ccsinc.com
(Please excuse any cross postings)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:23:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: FYI: Class (fwd)
NOTE: If interested in the information described below, use the contact
information provided therein to access it. Do NOT respond to the list's
address (or to mine).
Thanks.
Bill
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
Fax: +1 703 834 8209
=============================================================================
- ---------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 10:10:55 -0600
Subject: Class
"Oklahoma State University - Oklahoma City is offering an online
course this upcoming Spring semester entitled, "Introduction to Total
Quality". The course will begin 12 Jan 1998 and end 10 May 1998. The
course will be facilitated by OSU-OKC faculty and worth 3 credit
hours. It is a web based course, so you can take the course at your
leisure as long as it is finished by 10 May 1998. For more information
or to enroll, e-mail Mike DeLong at: mdelong@okway.okstate.edu or
call (405) 945-8611."
Mike DeLong
Assistant Professor
Quality Assurance/Management
(405) 945-8611
E-mail: mdelong@okway.okstate.edu
- ---------- End Forwarded Message ----------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:15:20 PST
From: "Hisham Abdel Salam"
Subject: [none]
Hi everyone,
I'm a demonstrator at the faculty oc computers and information - Cairo
Univ.
I'm looking for a suitable subject for my master degree
I wonder if anyone can help me in one of the following subjects;
1- environmental accounting and operations research
2- total quality management and operations research
Thanks.
my e-mail is:
hmsalam@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:34:15 -0800
From: Fergus Charlton
Subject: EMS software
Does anyone on the list have recommendations for off the shelf software
to assist in the certification to ISO14001?
I am currently using a database of my own making to log aspects and
effects, but it is a simple affair and there is no point in reinventing
the wheel.
- --
Fergus Charlton Environmental Management Officer
Pointing Limited, Prudhoe, Northumberland, England, NE42 6NJ
tel: 44 1661 832621 Fax: 44 1661 835650
e-mail: Fergus@pointing.bdx.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:01:39 -0500
From: David Terry <113150.1656@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: How long is a piece of string?
I am the operations director of a manufacturing company employing 300
staff. Our main activities are metal pressing, fabrication and assembly
for the automotive sector.
I am going to begin implementing iso14001 in the new year. I will be using
a local advice forum to get help with the technical environmental issues
but we are going to do the body of the development work in-house.
I have a technical team consisting of
Purchasing manager
Quality Manager
Maintenance Supervisor
Senior Production Manager
Health & Safety Manager
My questions to the group would be:
Through any previous experience, could anyone give me an indication on how
much time each member of the above team would have to commit for the
company to achieve certification to ISO14001?
In an attempt to optimize my use of consultants I would also appreciate any
information on how the use of consultancy time would help reduce the time
required by my staff.
Merry Christmas
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:19:17 -0500
From: Joe Maillet
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?
David Terry wrote:
>
> I am the operations director of a manufacturing company employing 300
> staff. Our main activities are metal pressing, fabrication and assembly
> for the automotive sector.
> I am going to begin implementing iso14001 in the new year. I will be using
> a local advice forum to get help with the technical environmental issues
> but we are going to do the body of the development work in-house.
>
> I have a technical team consisting of
> Purchasing manager
> Quality Manager
> Maintenance Supervisor
> Senior Production Manager
> Health & Safety Manager
>
> My questions to the group would be:
> Through any previous experience, could anyone give me an indication on how
> much time each member of the above team would have to commit for the
> company to achieve certification to ISO14001?
>
> In an attempt to optimize my use of consultants I would also appreciate any
> information on how the use of consultancy time would help reduce the time
> required by my staff.
>
> Merry Christmas
I provided ISO 14000 consulting for a company about half your size.
This was a company that manufactured primarily cutting tools.
The Environmental Committee was similar to what you propose, but they
also had the benefit of 2 graduate coops. that did much of the
documentation required to satisfy 14001. This was a full time
assignment for them. The effort took about 10 months from start to
actually achieving certification. The balance of the staff probably
devoted 2 to 3 hours a week to complete the effort. My task, as a
consultant was to guide them thru the process and provide some
structured methodologies to satisfy each of the ISO 14001 elements.
Joe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:12:22 -0500
From: "flahive"
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?
It's my experience that, right or wrong, a consultant receives more respect
and attention than internal personnel. So they can accomplish allot of
good, or bad, quickly; unless, like and any operation, their process and
direction are continuously measured. Select your consultant carefully!
You and your personnel need intimate knowledge of ISO 14001 to know if your
consultant is performing according to your needs. Also, you know how your
industry and culture work. So, use that knowledge to direct your
consultant. They should be working with you - towards where you want to go.
Tom Flahive
Consultant
- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Maillet
To: David Terry <113150.1656@CompuServe.COM>
Cc: iso14000@quality.org
Date: 19 December 1997 11:26
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?
>David Terry wrote:
>>
>> I am the operations director of a manufacturing company employing 300
>> staff. Our main activities are metal pressing, fabrication and assembly
>> for the automotive sector.
>> I am going to begin implementing iso14001 in the new year. I will be
using
>> a local advice forum to get help with the technical environmental issues
>> but we are going to do the body of the development work in-house.
>>
>> I have a technical team consisting of
>> Purchasing manager
>> Quality Manager
>> Maintenance Supervisor
>> Senior Production Manager
>> Health & Safety Manager
>>
>> My questions to the group would be:
>> Through any previous experience, could anyone give me an indication on
how
>> much time each member of the above team would have to commit for the
>> company to achieve certification to ISO14001?
>>
>> In an attempt to optimize my use of consultants I would also appreciate
any
>> information on how the use of consultancy time would help reduce the time
>> required by my staff.
>>
>> Merry Christmas
>
> I provided ISO 14000 consulting for a company about half your size.
>This was a company that manufactured primarily cutting tools.
>The Environmental Committee was similar to what you propose, but they
>also had the benefit of 2 graduate coops. that did much of the
>documentation required to satisfy 14001. This was a full time
>assignment for them. The effort took about 10 months from start to
>actually achieving certification. The balance of the staff probably
>devoted 2 to 3 hours a week to complete the effort. My task, as a
>consultant was to guide them thru the process and provide some
>structured methodologies to satisfy each of the ISO 14001 elements.
>
>Joe
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:35:41 -0500
From: Russ DeVilbiss
Subject: RE: How long is a piece of string?
David,
The most definite response that I can think of...It depends.
Quite honestly, how much work a company must do to conform to ISO 14001 is depended upon how close the organization currently is. For Example, Company A is an ISO 9000/proactive management system type of company with a culture conducive to ISO 14001. Th
eir learning curve and "time spent" on an EMS would probably be quite less than Company B, who does not keep records, does not maintain procedures (whether written or oral), etc.
I see two major areas of work. One is the operations, documentation, corrective action, management review side. The second is the identifying environmental aspects/impacts, setting targets and objectives and creating programs. It appears that companies
familiar with ISO 9000 still have a good deal of work to do with the environmental aspects/targets & objectives part.
As far as consultants go, once again, it depends. I would try to assess where your weak points may be. A consultant could fill a weakness such as general training, identifying and analyzing aspects and impacts, overall kick-in-the-pants encouragement, e
t al. I believe that the important issue with hiring a consultant is to make sure the consultant will work within your culture or work WITH you to massage the culture. Be weary of the one-size-fits-all approach of cramming a template down your throat.
Good Luck
Russ DeVilbiss
ISO 14000/EMS Product Manager
ERAtech Environmental, Inc.
rdevilbiss@eratech.com
800.848.4990 x126
937.859.8998 x126
(f) 937.859.9132
- -----Original Message-----
From: David Terry [SMTP:113150.1656@CompuServe.COM]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 6:02 AM
To: iso14000
Subject: How long is a piece of string?
I am the operations director of a manufacturing company employing 300
staff. Our main activities are metal pressing, fabrication and assembly
for the automotive sector.
I am going to begin implementing iso14001 in the new year. I will be using
a local advice forum to get help with the technical environmental issues
but we are going to do the body of the development work in-house.
I have a technical team consisting of
Purchasing manager
Quality Manager
Maintenance Supervisor
Senior Production Manager
Health & Safety Manager
My questions to the group would be:
Through any previous experience, could anyone give me an indication on how
much time each member of the above team would have to commit for the
company to achieve certification to ISO14001?
In an attempt to optimize my use of consultants I would also appreciate any
information on how the use of consultancy time would help reduce the time
required by my staff.
Merry Christmas
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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:34:40 -0500
From: HY BRAVERMAN
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?
Hello everyone:
I've read a few replys to Dave Terry's question. Here is what I see.
Too often the Information Management component is left off in the
begining and the has to be added in the end. The IT peice is a critical
leg that the entire ISO 14000 concept rests upon. Getting the data to
and from places is strategically important and not letting it get stale
is more important.
My consutancy practice in EnviroInformatics will begin in 1998. I
provide the planning and implementation of the information management of
environmental management systems.
Good holiday wishes to everyone..........
Hy Braverman
BRAVERMAN GROUP
860-665-7169
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Terry [SMTP:113150.1656@CompuServe.COM]
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 1997 6:02 AM
> To: iso14000
> Subject: How long is a piece of string?
>
> I am the operations director of a manufacturing company employing 300
> staff. Our main activities are metal pressing, fabrication and assembly
> for the automotive sector.
> I am going to begin implementing iso14001 in the new year. I will be using
> a local advice forum to get help with the technical environmental issues
> but we are going to do the body of the development work in-house.
>
> I have a technical team consisting of
> Purchasing manager
> Quality Manager
> Maintenance Supervisor
> Senior Production Manager
> Health & Safety Manager
>
> My questions to the group would be:
> Through any previous experience, could anyone give me an indication on how
> much time each member of the above team would have to commit for the
> company to achieve certification to ISO14001?
>
> In an attempt to optimize my use of consultants I would also appreciate any
> information on how the use of consultancy time would help reduce the time
> required by my staff.
>
> Merry Christmas
> The most definite response that I can think of...It depends.
>
> Quite honestly, how much work a company must do to conform to ISO 14001 is depended upon how close the organization currently is. For Example, Company A is an ISO 9000/proactive management system type of company with a culture conducive to ISO 14001.
Their learning curve and "time spent" on an EMS would probably be quite less than Company B, who does not keep records, does not maintain procedures (whether written or oral), etc.
>
> I see two major areas of work. One is the operations, documentation, corrective action, management review side. The second is the identifying environmental aspects/impacts, setting targets and objectives and creating programs. It appears that compani
es familiar with ISO 9000 still have a good deal of work to do with the environmental aspects/targets & objectives part.
>
> As far as consultants go, once again, it depends. I would try to assess where your weak points may be. A consultant could fill a weakness such as general training, identifying and analyzing aspects and impacts, overall kick-in-the-pants encouragement,
et al. I believe that the important issue with hiring a consultant is to make sure the consultant will work within your culture or work WITH you to massage the culture. Be weary of the one-size-fits-all approach of cramming a template down your
>
> Good Luck
>
> Russ DeVilbiss
> ISO 14000/EMS Product Manager
> ERAtech Environmental, Inc.
>
> rdevilbiss@eratech.com
>
> 800.848.4990 x126
> 937.859.8998 x126
> (f) 937.859.9132
>
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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 97 15:40:54 +0000
From: richard@frey.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?
Dear David,
The alternative version is "How much does it cost to go by taxi?"
Here is a declaration of interest: I do EMS implementation for a living,
so everything I say hereafter about consultancy should be automatically
suspect.
For a company of your size, it would be reasonable to allow six months
total project time, less if in a hurry, and it should be perfectly
possible for the team to work things in with existing duties. Total
man-hours is difficult to estimate because every company is different and
the work content is determined more by internal company factors than by
the praticalities of environmental management. The most important
internal factors are likely to be these:
1 Complexity of organisation
Single organisation, single site is easiest; Complex organisation or
shared sites = bad news.
2 Value of existing quality system
Effective, efficient, valued, used = good news. Lots of paper,
bureaucratic, not used, blame culture = bad news
3 Project team
The team WANT it to happen and there is a motivated project champion.
Anything else is death. A clear view of where you want to be and how you
are getting there is vital.
4 Management support
Top management is not just going through the motions. Otherwise, you
will struggle interminably.
I suggest you need to allow half a day with your team to thrash out your
significant aspects, and a day or two to put together an outline
programme, formulate company policy and agree the implementation plan.
The important thing is to treat the EMS as a project to be project
managed for the company's benefit, NOT as a documentation exercise.
There will be work implementing programme specifics, but how much there
is and who does it will depend on the programme, which will depend on
your opportunities, which will depend on your processes.
If you have significant aspects 'upstream', the procurement manager will
be busy with the supply chain. If there are significant aspects
associated with the product, there will be work for the designers, or
maybe the design procedure will need to be re-worked. Where specific
training is required for persons operating key processes, the human
resources manager will be busy arranging that training. There may well
be marketing implications and opportunities, but these are impossible to
predict in advance.
Much of the rest of the work will probably fall to the Quality Manager,
and will consist of producing the manual, making any changes to quality
procedures / work instructions and getting systems up and running.
Your question about consultancy has no single answer. As with support
for any project, there is a balance between outgoing and return.
On the one hand, there is the cost of support. On the other hand, the
project will take less of your team's time and will be shorter. The use
of proven models and insights will avoid the trial and error which
results if the project becomes a voyage of exploration. The chances of
getting to your goal will also increase because of the reduced likelihood
of having to backtrack or otherwise losing momentum and credibility.
The trick is to keep the paperwork down and to use existing management
systems if they are suitable. My experience is that the costs of
focused and effective support are far outweighed by the downsides of
getting it wrong, which is what you would expect me to say. For example,
the maintenance costs of an overly bureaucratic system will continue
indefinitely.
Personally, I would advise support AT LEAST for these parts of the
project:
Optionally:
1 Initial review - where the company is now, and where the opportunities
lie
2 Quality system diagnosis - to confirm suitability
1 Just before the start - choosing and enroling the team, milestone
planning the project; doing the basic design
2 Pulling together the summary of legislation - usually desperately
labour-intensive.
3 Facilitating the aspects analysis, agreeing objectives and targets,
outlining the programme
4 Outlining the manual and drafting system procedures
5 Checking the completed EMS
6 A pre-audit 'friendly' audit
If this seems like a lot, bear in mind that there is quite a lot of
evidence that a well-implemented EMS, in manufacturing at least, will
more than pay for itself quite rapidly. I have at least one case study
from your industry. I also know of two projects which failed in terms of
time or budget or value of the final result. Both failed because one or
more of the basic success factors was missed.
Getting ISO 14001 right is a big subject and the above sermon glosses
over a lot of things, but I hope this helps. Happy Christmas to you
too.
Best wishes,
Richard Frey
Frey Environmental Associates Limited
Specialists in the design and implementation
of environmental management systems.
http://www.frey.demon.co.uk
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