iso14000-digest Thursday, March 5 1998 Volume 02 : Number 029
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:48:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: misaddressed message (fwd)
NOTE: Respond *both* to the poster's address (see BELOW line reading
"Forwarded Message") and to the list's posting address, NOT to me.
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
=============================================================================
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:25:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Benny
To: iso14000@quality.org
Hi all,
Re: Problems of getting ISO14000 for a group of Co.
My plant consists of 6 companies. Their business is not the same but
they are under the
same GROUP, ie. they are the sub-company of a holding company. However,
some
sub-company have other workplace in another place.
I know that ISO14000 is registered for a location or a plant not a
company and it's
one of the difference between ISO9000. I think the reason is that if the
plant get fire,
staff of other company in the same plant should know how to do.
My reason is that if I register for ISO14000, what I should apply for
certification is
the holding company or the separate companies.
If I get the certification of holding company, can I put the "ISO14000"
in the publication
or name card of the sub-companies?
Thanks for anybody help
Benny Lam
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:51:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: Non-member submission from [Susan Raines ] (fwd)
NOTE: Respond *both* to the poster's address (see BELOW line reading
"Forwarded Message") and to the list's posting address, NOT to me.
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
=============================================================================
- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:32:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Susan Raines
To: iso14000@cyberq.quality.org
Subject: Re: iso14000-digest V2 #27
Does anyone know where I can get a list of ISO certified companies in
developing countries? I am conducting dissertation research on the costs
and benefits of ISO 14000 for firms in developing countries (Africa, most
of Asia, Eastern Europe, etc.).
Thanks,
Susan S. Raines
School of Public and Environmental Affairs
Indiana University
Bloomington IN 47405
sraines@indiana.edu
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:58:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)"
Subject: re: Oops....
I mistakenly gave you the wrong URL for the QUALITY.ORG "Book of the
Week". The correct one is:
http://www.quality.org/Bookstore/BOW.htm
Or, just go to the QUALITY.ORG homepage at http://www.quality.org and
click on "Book of the Week".
Mea culpa.
Bill
=============================================================================
Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org
Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149
President, Associated Quality Consultants, Inc. Fax: +1 703 834 8209
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our Online Quality Resources Website and Bookstore at
http://www.quality.org
=============================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:04:29 -0400
From: "Dan Wurster"
Subject: RE: Environmental Policy
I have been away for a few days, so I am a bit late with my comments.
I know I am showing my age when I admit that I have been working for
companies with Environmental Policies for the past 25 years.
Think about it! ISO14000 didn't cause companies to write Environmental
Policies. The majority of larger companies have had good, applicable
policies for years. They use them to tell employees what the company stands
for environmentally and to help the various parts of the company set
targets and objectives.
Sound familiar?? ISO14000 didn't invent environmental policies and some of
us are getting tired of a lot of new young consultants who think they are
saving the world by telling us how to write these policies.
I'm sure they are well-meaning, well educated and trying hard to be
well-paid. But they need to take a short look at their history books.
Dan Wurster,
Box 1883
Stellarton, NS, B0K 1S0
wurstd@north.nsis.com
The usual disclaimers, esp. for my typing!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:42:56 -0500
From: Diana Baldi
Subject: RE: Environmental Policy & non-conformities
We are in total agreement on your policy points.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:11:12 -0500
From: Duncan Smith
Subject: To: iso14000
Dan Wurster wrote
>Sound familiar?? ISO14000 didn't invent environmental policies and some of
us are getting tired of a lot of new young consultants who think they are
saving the world by telling us how to write these policies.
I'm sure they are well-meaning, well educated and trying hard to be
well-paid. But they need to take a short look at their history books.<
Dan
I'm sure you're right for some organisations (and you do use caveats like
'many'), but are you not missing the point that many of us 'young
consultants' see the older generation as having a global disregard for the
environment, and therefore yes we are "trying to save the world"
Or is it all just hype and conspiracy, and in fact the Old 'uns are doing
just fine as far as ensuring our planet has a healthy and vibrant future !
I hope so; but think not.
Duncan S Smith
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 09:25:50 -0600
From: Phil Rooney
Subject: Re: Environmental Policy
In light of messages from Dan Wurster and Duncan Smith--
Dear Grand Elders and Young Turks:
We all need to ask ourselves several fundamental questions, whatever the
source, outline, or methodology of our environmental policies.
1) What impact do we have on the environment for good or ill? (In the
scouts we were taught to leave a campsite cleaner than we found it. We
on the planet have the same obligation.) What are we doing to improve
that impact?
2) Do we still have to obtain operating permits and are we getting Class
I permits or can we qualify for less costly, less stringent permits by
emitting below threshold amounts?
3) Do we need to apply for permits to dispose of special or hazardous
waste?
4) Do we purchase, use, and store chemicals that are hazardous or toxic?
Do our people need special training or equipment to handle or store the
material we buy and use? Do we need special, costly, and redundant
storage facilities and safety measures because the stuff is so nasty?
Could the stuff be harmful to me, my workers, our neighbors, or my
family? Would I want my family living next door, down stream, or down
wind of this place? (This last one is a real gut check question. If you
say "no" be prepared to make big changes in how you do things or to pay
big time in fines, fees, lawsuits, insurance claims, lost production
time, and unfavorable public image.)
5) Are we creating waste? (Okay. Trick question. EVERYONE creates waste;
we create waste in our homes, let alone in our businesses.)
6) Are we reusing as much "waste" as possible? Do we trade it or sell it
to another business to use as their raw material? Do we buy these
materials from other businesses to save purchasing costs? Can and do we
sell it back to the vendor who reprocesses it for new material?
7) Can I honestly say that NONE of our equipment leaks, drips, or emits
vapors where they are not supposed to?
8) Are our policies--no matter how nice sounding on paper and when
rattled off at new employee orientation meetings and at PR
sessions--producing practical, measurable, demonstrable results that
have reduced operating costs, have reduced the amount or severity of the
permits we need, and are producing less waste and a cleaner environment?
9) Do we have to borrow pollution credits from other industries in our
EPA Region just to stay in compliance or below threshold?
These are the questions that count. If the answers to questions 2-8 are
"no" and the answer to question 9 is "yes," you're not getting there;
WHATEVER system you're using ain't working. (Maybe no one is going
beyond composition; the writing is on the shelf, but no one is DOING
anything practical with the policy.) HOW you get there doesn't amount to
a hill of beans (unless you're a bean counter). We all must remember the
intent of evironmental regulations and the true reason for complying
with them: to create a healthier, safer environment for our kids.
Business is in the business of making profit. That is our capitalist
system at work, and, so far, it has worked pretty well. No other system
has endured so long nor given so high a standard of living to the
greatest majority of the citizenry. I don't see it as a "global
disregard for the environment." I do see it as a practical matter of
"keeping up with the Jones" and ensuring a profit (whether excessive or
reasonable I leave to better brains than mine to determine) that
provides a good standard of living for worker, boss, and owner. That's
why we need to understand that protecting the environment just makes
good business sense.
Protecting the environment by coming into compliance or, ideally, going
beyond compliance reduces waste and reduces costs and inefficiencies. It
preserves natural resources and reduces the cost of finding new and more
resources. It makes greater use of materials already purchased and
reduces purchasing costs. It makes for cleaner emissions and reduces the
severity of spills, leaks, and other accidents. Reducing these events
reduces permitting costs, remediation costs, worker comp costs,
insurance costs, law suit costs and fines, and many other costs and
fees. Protecting the environment involves purchasing smaller amounts of
materials or purchasing less toxic materials. These purchasing choices
reduce OSHA reporting and record-keeping requirements and costs. These
choices improve worker safety and morale (leading to more productive
workers--what a concept: more work, more profits at less hassles and
costs). Purchasing less hazardous materials reduces the need for and the
costs associated with the need for special equipment, special training,
and specially designed storage areas. These purchasing practices also
reduce the cost of disposal. Protecting the environment by going beyond
compiance helps keep regulators and inspectors out of the plant. (P2 a
day keeps the regulator away.)
Gee. Sounds like a winner to me--for everyone.
Phil (Can't We All Just Get Along) Rooney
Lincoln-Lancaster County Health Department.
3140 "N" Street
Lincoln, NE 68510
(402) 441-8644
(402) 441-8323 (fax)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 08:37:34 -0800
From: Dave Meyer
Subject: Re:environmental policy
At 03:11 AM 3/4/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Dan Wurster wrote
>
>>Sound familiar?? ISO14000 didn't invent environmental policies and some of
>us are getting tired of a lot of new young consultants who think they are
>saving the world by telling us how to write these policies.
>
>I'm sure they are well-meaning, well educated and trying hard to be
>well-paid. But they need to take a short look at their history books.<
I've viewed the dialogue regarding environmental policy debelopment with
great interest these past few days, and felt that it was my turn to
participate. As an environmental management consultant for nearly as long
as Mr. Wurster, I too have recognized that many forward thinking companies
have maintained and improved upon their environmental policies for many
years, well in advance of the advent of the ISO 14001 standard. I
completed my Masters in 1995 on development of corporate environmental
policies, and analyzed over 50 company policies, most of which predated the
standard. These policies ranged from broad statements to simple visions
and everything in between.
Now, with the emergence of the ISO standard and its yet unrealized full
potential, many pre-existing companies policies do indeed fall short of the
intent of the standard. Many participants to this discussion, particularly
Ms. Baldi, Ritzert and Goodman, as well as some thoughtful legal comment
from Mr. Krages have provided valuable input regarding policy development
as it relates TO THE STANDARD. Our company, Quality Advisors, has assisted
our customers in the successful implementation of environmental policies
that have satisfied the intent of the standards, even to the discriminating
eye of the registrar. My principle observation has been that many of our
customers policies satisfy the intent of the standard more than a
pre-existing corporate parents environmental policies.
The intent of our work is not to belittle the work of others that preceded
us, but to augment and improve our customers operations in a way that offer
competitive advantage. The policy is a means to reinforce the company's
environmental vision, and a visible declaration of intent.
For all those interested in receiving examples of some of the policies that
I have amassed over the past five years (at last count, over 150), please
contact me directly , and I'll be happy to engage in some lively dialogue
regarding MY passion.
Regards,
Dave Meyer
Senior Advisor
Quality Advisors, Inc.
16981 Via Tazon, Ste J
San Diego, CA 92127
dmeyer@cts.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:12:13 GMT-0300
From: "Macarena Ortega"
Subject: Looking for auditor course
Dear Friends:
This is my first message for all of you. I work in a non-profit
foundation called Fundacion Chile who transfer technologies to new
areas of development. I work in the Marine Resources Department.
I am a marine biologist. We are developing now an environmental
certification system for chilean aquaculture, in the frame of ISO
14000 but not pretending to certify the industry because we pretend
to develop a Code of Practice who certify, at the end, a salmon
farming center as an environmentally well managed center. The point
is that we would like to expand this knowledge to other
industries but offering only ISO 14000 certification because we
believe in it, and here in Chile people are becoming to see it as an
useful tool.
We are not certified 14001 and we are just in the beginning of the
process, but we would like to accredit some people as an ISO 14000
auditor. Do you know about serious institutions accredited by
ANSI-RAB or similar who give this kind of training?? I have seen a
lot in the Internet, but I thought maybe you could know a good one.
Hoping to hearing from you soon,
********************************
Macarena Ortega
Marine Resources Department
Fundacion Chile
Phone: +56-2-2400300
Fax: +56-2-2419389
Http://www.fundch.cl
e-mail: mortega@fundch.cl
********************************
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:10:31 -0500
From: HY BRAVERMAN
Subject: Re: Environmental Policy
YUP! WHat he said......
I've been reading the string of messages for some time and from where I
stand, many have missed the point. Policy, SMOLICY, you make the air,
water and land dirty, living things, mostly people, get hurt. People
tell the government, government makes regulations and companies cry that
their profits are impacted. The government is interfering with business
when it tell comanies they must disclose their waste streams.
It's industries responsibility to be clean. They have to listen to
those regulations. And one way is to implement an Environmental
Management System. How they do it is immaterial, its just that they have
to. No questions asked. They owe it to people, other living things, the
community, they customers, their suppliers and the economy.
Permits are a waste of time, businesses need to get rid of hazardous
waste, not generate any!
The reason waste is generated is that companies are lazy, and blind to
find alternative, non-hazardous way to produce goods. They want to milk
the cash cow and satisfy the investment community by showing the
illusion of profits, when waste generation is draining profits. This is
real simple,
Profits=Revenues-Expenses. Those expenses climb when you create waste
from "TRAILING EDGE" production and MANAGEMENT processes.
That's my opinion.................That's how I feel!
What do you think?
There are more compelling reasons why businesses should step up to the
table and get their acts together and get green.
Hy Braverman
BRAVERMAN STANDARD
email: braveman@ziplink.net
>Phil Rooney wrote:
>
> In light of messages from Dan Wurster and Duncan Smith--
>
> Dear Grand Elders and Young Turks:
>
> We all need to ask ourselves several fundamental questions, whatever the
> source, outline, or methodology of our environmental policies.
>
> 1) What impact do we have on the environment for good or ill? (In the
> scouts we were taught to leave a campsite cleaner than we found it. We
> on the planet have the same obligation.) What are we doing to improve
> that impact?
>
> 2) Do we still have to obtain operating permits and are we getting Class
> I permits or can we qualify for less costly, less stringent permits by
> emitting below threshold amounts?
>
> 3) Do we need to apply for permits to dispose of special or hazardous
> waste?
>
> 4) Do we purchase, use, and store chemicals that are hazardous or toxic?
> Do our people need special training or equipment to handle or store the
> material we buy and use? Do we need special, costly, and redundant
> storage facilities and safety measures because the stuff is so nasty?
> Could the stuff be harmful to me, my workers, our neighbors, or my
> family? Would I want my family living next door, down stream, or down
> wind of this place? (This last one is a real gut check question. If you
> say "no" be prepared to make big changes in how you do things or to pay
> big time in fines, fees, lawsuits, insurance claims, lost production
> time, and unfavorable public image.)
>
> 5) Are we creating waste? (Okay. Trick question. EVERYONE creates waste;
> we create waste in our homes, let alone in our businesses.)
>
> 6) Are we reusing as much "waste" as possible? Do we trade it or sell it
> to another business to use as their raw material? Do we buy these
> materials from other businesses to save purchasing costs? Can and do we
> sell it back to the vendor who reprocesses it for new material?
>
> 7) Can I honestly say that NONE of our equipment leaks, drips, or emits
> vapors where they are not supposed to?
>
> 8) Are our policies--no matter how nice sounding on paper and when
> rattled off at new employee orientation meetings and at PR
> sessions--producing practical, measurable, demonstrable results that
> have reduced operating costs, have reduced the amount or severity of the
> permits we need, and are producing less waste and a cleaner environment?
>
> 9) Do we have to borrow pollution credits from other industries in our
> EPA Region just to stay in compliance or below threshold?
>
> These are the questions that count. If the answers to questions 2-8 are
> "no" and the answer to question 9 is "yes," you're not getting there;
> WHATEVER system you're using ain't working. (Maybe no one is going
> beyond composition; the writing is on the shelf, but no one is DOING
> anything practical with the policy.) HOW you get there doesn't amount to
> a hill of beans (unless you're a bean counter). We all must remember the
> intent of evironmental regulations and the true reason for complying
> with them: to create a healthier, safer environment for our kids.
>
> Business is in the business of making profit. That is our capitalist
> system at work, and, so far, it has worked pretty well. No other system
> has endured so long nor given so high a standard of living to the
> greatest majority of the citizenry. I don't see it as a "global
> disregard for the environment." I do see it as a practical matter of
> "keeping up with the Jones" and ensuring a profit (whether excessive or
> reasonable I leave to better brains than mine to determine) that
> provides a good standard of living for worker, boss, and owner. That's
> why we need to understand that protecting the environment just makes
> good business sense.
>
> Protecting the environment by coming into compliance or, ideally, going
> beyond compliance reduces waste and reduces costs and inefficiencies. It
> preserves natural resources and reduces the cost of finding new and more
> resources. It makes greater use of materials already purchased and
> reduces purchasing costs. It makes for cleaner emissions and reduces the
> severity of spills, leaks, and other accidents. Reducing these events
> reduces permitting costs, remediation costs, worker comp costs,
> insurance costs, law suit costs and fines, and many other costs and
> fees. Protecting the environment involves purchasing smaller amounts of
> materials or purchasing less toxic materials. These purchasing choices
> reduce OSHA reporting and record-keeping requirements and costs. These
> choices improve worker safety and morale (leading to more productive
> workers--what a concept: more work, more profits at less hassles and
> costs). Purchasing less hazardous materials reduces the need for and the
> costs associated with the need for special equipment, special training,
> and specially designed storage areas. These purchasing practices also
> reduce the cost of disposal. Protecting the environment by going beyond
> compiance helps keep regulators and inspectors out of the plant. (P2 a
> day keeps the regulator away.)
>
> Gee. Sounds like a winner to me--for everyone.
>
> Phil (Can't We All Just Get Along) Rooney
> Lincoln-Lancaster County Health Department.
> 3140 "N" Street
> Lincoln, NE 68510
>
> (402) 441-8644
> (402) 441-8323 (fax)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:30:08 +0100
From: "Goodman, Sally"
Subject: RE: Looking for auditor course
Dear Macarena,
There are indeed, many courses available. I believe that ANSI/RAB will
shortly be accrediting a suitable course, but do not know if is yet
available.
The majority of ISO 14001 Environmental Auditor courses are accredited
either by the Environmental Auditors Registration Association (EARA) or
the International Register of Certificated Auditors (IRCA). If you
contact these two organisations, they will send you a list of companies
which provide accredited training courses. Details follow:
EARA
Welton House
Limekiln Way
Lincoln
LN2 4US
England
Tel: +44 1522 540069
Fax: +44 1522 540090
Email: eara@dial.pipex.com
www.greenchannel.com/eara
IRCA
PO Box 712
61 Southwark Street
London
SE1 1SB
England
Tel: +44 171 401 2988
Fax: +44 171 390 2418
DNV provides EARA - accredited courses (2-day Foundation Course and
5-day Advanced Course) at various venues around the world and, of
course, I would say they are good courses! I do suggest however, that
you contact EARA and IRCA and "shop around".
Hope this helps.
With kind regards,
Sally
Sally L Goodman
Product Manager, Accredited Environmental Systems Certification
DTP 325 Section for Certification
Det Norske Veritas
Tel: +47 67 57 8213
Fax: +47 67 57 9705
Email: sally.goodman@dnv.com
http://www.dnv.com
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Macarena Ortega [SMTP:mortega@fundch.cl]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 1998 4:12 PM
>To: iso14000@quality.org
>Subject: Looking for auditor course
>
>Dear Friends:
>
>This is my first message for all of you. I work in a non-profit
>foundation called Fundacion Chile who transfer technologies to new
>areas of development. I work in the Marine Resources Department.
>I am a marine biologist. We are developing now an environmental
>certification system for chilean aquaculture, in the frame of ISO
>14000 but not pretending to certify the industry because we pretend
>to develop a Code of Practice who certify, at the end, a salmon
>farming center as an environmentally well managed center. The point
>is that we would like to expand this knowledge to other
>industries but offering only ISO 14000 certification because we
>believe in it, and here in Chile people are becoming to see it as an
>useful tool.
>We are not certified 14001 and we are just in the beginning of the
>process, but we would like to accredit some people as an ISO 14000
>auditor. Do you know about serious institutions accredited by
>ANSI-RAB or similar who give this kind of training?? I have seen a
>lot in the Internet, but I thought maybe you could know a good one.
>
>Hoping to hearing from you soon,
>********************************
>Macarena Ortega
>Marine Resources Department
>Fundacion Chile
>Phone: +56-2-2400300
>Fax: +56-2-2419389
>Http://www.fundch.cl
>e-mail: mortega@fundch.cl
>********************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:46:38 GMT-0300
From: "Macarena Ortega"
Subject: RE: Looking for auditor course
Dear Sally:
Thank you for your reply. I will contact EARA and IRCA to obtain more
information about environmental auditor courses.
For anything you want, please don't hesitate to contact me
Regards, Macarena.
********************************
Macarena Ortega
Marine Resources Department
Fundacion Chile
Phone: +56-2-2400300
Fax: +56-2-2419389
Http://www.fundch.cl
e-mail: mortega@fundch.cl
********************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:03 GMT-0300
From: "Macarena Ortega"
Subject: Re: Looking for auditor course
Dear DeWitt:
Where your name come from?? It's very beautiful. Thanks for your
comments about your experience in the course that you attended. They
are very useful for me, believe me.
Really, I'm looking for some serious Institution who impart an auditor
course recognized for all the normalization institutes around the
world because here in Chile our normalization institute hasn't
dictate its requirements for ISO 14000 auditors yet, but the person
in charge there told me that the requirements for this kinds of
things are very similar for all the normalization Institutes.
So, that is my point. Thanks for your contact. I will call him.
Regards,
********************************
Macarena Ortega
Marine Resources Department
Fundacion Chile
Phone: +56-2-2400300
Fax: +56-2-2419389
Http://www.fundch.cl
e-mail: mortega@fundch.cl
********************************
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:08:45 EST
From: VGISO14000
Subject: Re: ISO 14000 Text - Info about The Victoria Group
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --part0_889135725_boundary
Content-ID: <0_889135725@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Nik,
Thank you very much for your interest in The Victoria Group, Inc. and its
Environmental Management Systems, Inc. division.
Attached you will find a brief two page document with some general
information.
Let me know if I can provide you with more detailed information or answer
anything
specific on ISO 14000 and ISO 9000.
Yours truly,
Rainer Ochsenkuehn
President
Environmental Mangement Systems, Inc.
A division of The Victoria Group, Inc.
212.957.4166 t
212.957.1114 f
ems@victoria.global.ibmmail.com
------------------------------
End of iso14000-digest V2 #29
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